Nye-Ham Debate
Is creation a viable
model of origins today? 2/4/14
Ham (5 min)-There
are scientists who support creationism.
Lots of rapid-fire slides of sciency images, often just a couple of
seconds each.
“Molecules-to-man evolution.” Asserts that HS textbooks definitions of
science presumes atheism by equating it with ‘naturalism.’ “Historical science” vs. “observational/experimental
science”
Nye (5 min)-bow
ties and tuxedo rentals. Two “stories”
presented tonight. Critique’s Ham’s
faulty distinction between historical and observational science. Is the literal narrative of the Genesis flood
reasonable? Grand Canyon—no evidence of
different types of fossils in the layers.
If the flood were accurate, they should be spread throughout the canyon.
What keeps the US ahead, globally, is our technological
capacity. If we continue to eschew
science, we will fall behind.
Ham (30
min)--Introduced several more scientists who are creationists. Stellar astronomer from IU. Biomimmetics engineer—says his colleagues are
amenable to creationism but are afraid to speak out.
A geology textbook—distinguishes “physical geology” vs. “historical
geology”. Scientists can agree on many
things despite being creationist vs evolutionist. Question for Nye—is there any piece of technology
that could only have been invented based on ‘molecules to man’ model? All scientists have the same evidence, but
this is a battle over interpretation, and thus a worldview.
Predictions based on Bible—species reproduce by “kinds” they
don’t change kinds. Humans derive from
single origin.
Darwin’s diary, drew a phylogenetic tree for finches, with a
side note “I think.” The creationist “kinds”
is scientific “family.” On the ark there
only needed to be 2 dogs, and all subsequent species of dogs come from this one
pair. Cited a paper which claims all
dogs came from one origin.
The words “science” and “evolution” have been hijacked by
secularists. Creationists don’t deny
species changes. They don’t agree that
one species can change into another species.
Refers to Lenski’s experiment, growing E Coli on citrate, which is
claimed to disprove creationism. Video from
microbiologist who says the study doesn’t disprove creationism. Old science textbook that used Darwin to
teach there were 5 different races. But
since modern science proves there is “one human race” it disproves Darwin.
Showed clip of Nye questioning how creationists can accept
modern technology and medicine, but not science supporting evolution. Ham emphasizes the distinction between
observational/experimental and historical science. Argues that creationists are using critical
thinking, and admits there is a ‘belief’ aspect, but evolutionists lack
critical thinking and are refusing to admit a ‘belief’ component.
Quotes Matthew, and other bible verses about sin and
salvation, connecting creationism with the Biblical story. He admits that many recognize that
creationists make this connection, and therefore want creationism out of
schools because it’s teaching religion.
Went on a long monologue about how naturalism is destroying the moral
fabric of society because it leads to moral relativism, abortion, etc. Believes that if you teach students
evolution, then you aren’t really teaching “science”, since it’s wrong, so you
need to teach them that Jesus died on the cross, so that they will understand
how things work.
Nye (30
min)---In KY there is a lot of limestone. This is millions of layers of animal
life. There wasn’t enough time since the
flood for this layer to form. Ice cores from
Greenland reveal 680,000 layers of ice, each of which is a winter/summer
cycle. That’s 170 per year if the earth
is 4000 years old. Rings form annually
on trees, many of which are far older than 4,000 years, which could not have
survived a year under water. If the
flood created the grand canyon, wouldn’t there be grand canyons
everywhere? There are discrete layers
visible in the GC-there aren’t mixing of animal types embedded in the other
layers. There is not one example
anywhere. The flood should have created
mixing.
If the flood happened 4,000 years ago, and the ark landed in
Turkey, somehow humans got to Australia—an alleged land bridge existed to
Australia. There is no evidence of such
a bridge, nor any animal evidence from 4,000 years. There are perhaps 16,000,000 species, that
allegedly originated from Ham’s claim of 7,000 kinds. That’s 11 new species per day if this
happened in 4,000 years. Boulders on top
of mountains in Oregon—how would they have got there in 4,000 years.
Early 1900s a large wooden ship was built by some of the best
in the world at ship-building, but it twisted in the sea and sunk—it was not as
large as the ark, which was built by people with no skills in
ship-building. Picture of a zoo with 400
species and a huge staff—is it reasonable that Noah’s family could have crammed
7,000 species on a boat for a year and take care of them?
Based on a gap in the fossil record, scientists predicted
what should fill in the gap—they found it in an ancient lake that was
calculated to be the right age.
Evolution can make predictions that are fulfilled, Ham’s model cannot.
Sexual reproduction-topminnows. Useful to develop immune systems to resist
germs and parasites. Scientists made a
prediction about this process, and it worked.
The big bang. Hubble
noticed that the stars were moving apart.
Astronomers predicted background noise, which was discovered. Periodic table—rubidium and strontium—this is
locked into place from volcanic eruptions, and you can tell how old it is. You can go to national parks where there are
fossils around these ancient eruptions—millions of years old. RB also used in a heart attack detection
technology, where there is no degree for in KY, highlighting the need for
science literacy. There are billions of
stars, far more than 6,000 years old which couldn’t exist by the creationist
model. There are ice, trees, rocks,
starlight, etc, far far far older than 6,000 years, so the creation model is
not viable.
US Constitution 1.8—“to promote science and the useful arts”
Ham (5 min)—can’t
‘observe’ the age of the earth. Bible
translation says God made the universe in 6-days, and following the genealogy,
that makes 6,000 years. Radioactive
decay-one geological dig, basalt was several million years, a wood sample was
tens of thousands. A volcanic eruptions
gave lots of different dates. Lots of
assumptions built into radioactive dating—that’s ‘historical’ science, since
there’s no way to absolutely historically date things.
There is a problem for Christians who believe in
long-earth. The bible shows that death
happened after Adam sinned, so if death happened millions of years ago, that
was before Adam sinned. The Bible says ‘thorns’
happened after Adam sinned, so that must be less than 6,000 years old. There was only one person there, that was
God, so we have to believe him. We have
hundreds of kinds of ‘dating’ methods, 90% of which prove young earth.
Nye (5 min)—Rocks
of different age in the same place are from rocks sliding on top of each other,
not bad dating methods. Are fish
sinners? If death happened after Adam,
why did the whole earth start dying? All
astronomy is, is looking at the past, because current starlight is from light
originating in the past. Light from the
people in the back of the audience getting to Nye is older than the light from
the people in the front of the room—either way, both are from the past. Ham asserts you can’t know the past. Ham argued that everybody were vegetarians
before the flood—but lions have teeth made for killing, not for surviving on
plants. Ham wants us to believe that his
interpretation of the Bible is more accurate than our observations about the
world around us.
Ham (5 min)—We
can only do good experimental science because we can trust the laws of the
universe, which was created by god—that’s why we can trust those laws. Ham doesn’t claim that ‘species’ got onto the
ark, but ‘kinds.’ There was plenty of
room on the ark. We didn’t see tree
rings forming, or ice cores being formed.
Ice can build up catastrophically—it’s inappropriate to presume things
happen in steady way. Pandas and other
bears have teeth similar to lions, but they eat plants. Creationists believe that post-flood
catastrophes that create the appearance of long ages. Why would Nye presume that Noah was unskilled
and unable to build a big boat, we haven’t met him. Chinese made large boats. Astronomers are having problems fitting their
predictions into the observable data.
Nye (5 min)—Ham
seems to believe that Noah had superpowers with him and his 7 family members able to make a viable
ark. Ham claims that when people make
assumptions about dating, about astronomy, about genetic mutations, he presumes
they don’t know what they are talking about, and that catastrophes created many
of these appearances. Why should we
accept Ham’s interpretation rather than all of these scientists, when Ham
claims that everything in our world changed 4,000 years ago, which shifted how
we can interpret science. Ham claims
Christians with old-earth views have a fundamental problem, but is that fair to
these Christians? There is science—not observational
and historical science. Scientists throw
away ideas that don’t work, and is built on testing predictions. Ham’s view based on a translation of an
ancient text that seems to deny the world we see around us, seems like an
untenable approach. We need science and
innovation in education today.
Q&A Period—with addressee
for 2 min to answer, and 1 min for opponent to respond.
How does creationism explain the vast number of planets
and the expanding universe, and what is God’s plan for that?
Ham-Bible says God ‘stretches out’ the heavans for his
glory. It’s to tell us how amazing, big
and infinite God is.
Nye—Does Ham have a prediction that can be tested?
What was before the big bang?
Nye—That’s a great question.
Let’s keep looking and find out.
A science student from KY may discover that.
Ham—There is a book that exists that tells us where matter
came from, the Bible, and it’s the only answer that makes sense. Matter can never produce information,
language. Only intelligence can create information.
What science beside the bible supports creationism?
Ham—“Majority” isn’t a judge of truth, so just because the
majority of scientists believe something doesn’t make it true. Ham made predictions—if the bible is right, there
should be one race. That’s true. There should
be kinds. That’s true. Ham showed videos of scientists who believe
in creationists.
Nye-If a scientist changes the way we view science, then we
embrace it. Pasteur and pathogen theory
was embraced and radically changed our view of science.
How did consciousness come from matter?
Nye-That’s a great mystery.
The joy of discovery drives us.
We don’t know, but the mystery drives us. Nye challenges the KY future scientists in
the audience to find out. If we abandon
good science education, we will fall behind.
Ham—The bible documents where consciousness came from. If you are gone when you die, as Nye claims,
then what is the point of anything?
What would change Ham’s mind, if anything?
Ham-As a Christian, he can’t ‘prove’ religion, that’s a
starting belief. You can check
prophecies in the bible, and verify the science described in the bible. Nobody can convince Ham that the bible is
wrong. The creation scientists make
models based on creation science. What
would change Nye’s mind?
Nye—Just one piece of evidence—that a fossil swam from one
layer to another. Or that you can reset
atomic clocks. Or that layers that
appear millions of years old can form in a few thousand years. What can Ham ‘actually’ ‘predict’?
What supports Nye’s view of the age of the earth.
Nye—Starlight.
Radiometric dating methods are compelling. Deposition rates. There is no evidence that there was a global
flood 4,000 years ago. The fossil record
of skulls takes time to go from one species to another.
Ham-4.5B date isn’t from dating earth rocks, but
meteorites. Hundreds of dating methods
exist, and they are all different, and they all make assumptions. 90% contradict the billions of years theory.
Continental drift occurs at a certain speed. Can Ham account for how fast they must have
gone 6,000 years ago to get to where we are today?
Ham-Assumptions are made based on current rates, that they
were similar in the past. But we didn’t
observe those past movements, we just assume them. Creationists believe in catastrophic plate
tectonics that created the current appearance.
That’s the difference between historical and observational science. Creationists believe there was originally one
continent, but the flood caused a break-up of the continents.
Nye—That must have been a lot easier to demonstrate 100 years ago before tectonic plate theory was
proved. Scientists can measure how
quickly plates were moving in the past.
How to balance evolution with 2nd law of
thermodynamics.
Nye-2nd law is that you lose energy to heat. Entropy, disorder of molecules. However, this questioner ignores that the
earth is not a closed system. The sun is
constantly providing energy to the earth.
Ham-Energy and matter cannot produce information. God imposed information and language. Decay is what happens to matter, things go
towards disorder. Only God could have
imposed order onto disorder.
If it could be proved hypothetically that the earth was
older than 10,000 years old, would Ham still believe in God?
Ham-You can’t ‘prove’ the age of the universe, so there is
no hypothetical, so it doesn’t matter.
There is nothing in observational science that contradicts the young
universe. If Christians believe in old
earth, they have a problem with the bible, because it contradicts that death only
occurred after Adam.
Nye—Ham wants us to believe that his interpretation of a
book translated into English from 1,000s of years ago, is more credible than everything
that we can see around us. What is it
that Ham’s theory can predict, not just about his theory of the past.
Is there room for God in science?
Nye—There are billions of people in the world who believes
in both God and embrace science and technology.
Science is the body of knowledge and the process by which we understand
the natural world. That doesn’t seem to
be related to one’s spiritual belief.
There are important scientists who are Christians, so it seems there is no
incompatibility. Ham hasn’t addressed
any of these problems with the ark, the ice layers, etc.
Ham-God is necessary for science.
Should the entire bible be interpreted literally? Can people touch pig skins, and marry
multiple people?
Ham—We have to define terms.
Some parts of the Bible are poetry, some are history, some is prophecy,
some are cosmological accounts. You have
to read it as the types were intended.
Some people misinterpret the Bible and try to impose it on other
people. When men were married to
multiple women that caused a lot of problems, and the Bible condemned
that.
Nye-It sounds like there are certain parts of the Bible that
should be interpreted literally, and other parts should be interpreted
poetically. Scientifically, it doesn’t
seem reasonable that all of the things that contradict Ham’s interpretation of
the first section of Genesis, doesn’t lead us to believe that those sections
should be interpreted literally.
Did Nye ever believe that evolution could have occurred
by design?
Nye—You cannot prove or disprove the existence of a God that
created the universe and causes things to happen. Intelligent Design has a fundamental
misunderstanding of nature. Evolution is
a process that adds complexity through natural selection. The perception that there is a designer isn’t
true because there are other explanations that make stronger predictions. Nature is bottom up, not top down as the
creationists propose. Science is
inconsistent with a top-down model
Ham-Nye needs to prove that a ‘new’ thing has come into
existence, but those examples don’t exist.
The E Coli that developed an ability to live on citrate isn’t a new
thing that developed, but a gene that was turned on that was already there.
Other than the Creation Museum, what is producing
products and ideas from creationism?
Ham-Anybody who is a creationist who is doing research. Nye should explain why we can trust the laws
of nature and logic unless God created them. If we don’t trust children where
these things really came from, then they won’t know science. Scientists are borrowing from the Christian
worldview when they talk about the constancy of natural law.
Nye-The reason Nye doesn’t accept the Ken Ham model is that
it has no predictive capacity. If the
Bible is the only literal word of God, what happened to all of the people who
never heard about the Bible? Are they
all inherently lost and misguided?
What is the one thing on all else on which you base your
belief?
Ham-The bible is the most unique book, and no other religion
talks about the origin of everything. It
offers redemption from sin. The Bible
offers predictions, and if it’s true, it should be able to be tested and found
true. Other religions have flood and
creation narratives. If you want to find
God, He will reveal himself.
Nye-Science is true and is constantly helping us discover
the universe. We are a product of the universe,
and have come to be because of the universe’s existence. These amazing questions drive us. If we abandon the process that we know works,
we in the US will be outcompeted by other countries. We have to embrace science education.
The debate will be archived for several days at
debatelive.org
These notes created by viewing the debate at http://www.local12.com/news/features/around-the-web/stories/watch-bill-nye-debate-ken-ham-from-the-creation-museum-feb-4-wkrc.shtml#.Uu_f4T9uF0c
